Why Buy from NonCup Winning Seed Companies

Kite High

Well-Known Member
Wernard, raifki, CK, etc. You do not understsnd. I have met shanti numerous times and do not like him. Howard I have partied with and like. Guess you are going to imply that I am wrong in my opinion of the person I met? and I KNOW Howard hasmade more in ONE particular hashish transaction in France than Shanti will make in his lifetime. I am in no way new to the dope game dude. I just don't advertise it.
 

LadyZandra

Active Member
JMO--
a straight personal answer to the original question: "Why Buy seeds from a non-cup winning seed company?"
Simple: because you MAY be missing out on some of the best and most unique weed you ever grew simply because you believe that they got into the Cup because they are the best...
They are SOME of the best-
but they are also the ones that could actually afford the time and MONEY to get INTO and travel-to the competition!
It isn't cheap, or easy, and some smaller-yet-reputable breeders are kept from the competition simply due to that fact! ;)
just sayin! ;)
 

bluntmassa1

Well-Known Member
Wernard, raifki, CK, etc. You do not understsnd. I have met shanti numerous times and do not like him. Howard I have partied with and like. Guess you are going to imply that I am wrong in my opinion of the person I met? and I KNOW Howard hasmade more in ONE particular hashish transaction in France than Shanti will make in his lifetime. I am in no way new to the dope game dude. I just don't advertise it.
well howard did get busted and he didn't have that kind of money when he got out of prison he made most of what he's got from his books and shit. But if you actually met Shanti then guess I could see your point not liking him not sure though I never met him either way he's a pretty good breeder. I never heard of any of the breeders you listed where they out of and where do they sell there seeds?
 

Jogro

Well-Known Member
Responding to above:

How nice/friendly/charismatic a guy is has very little to do with his ability as a breeder, and less yet to do with the quality of the ceeds.

Howard Marks has charisma. . .he's a charmer. . .but pretty sure the guy would tell you he's not a breeder and never has been.

On genetics, I think the simplest way to put it is that the genetics determine a plants POTENTIAL. Its then up to the grower to realize that potential.

Obviously a great grower can bring out the best from any plant, but ultimately, a mediocre grower with excellent genetics is ALWAYS going to do better than a top-level grower with poor genetics.

Put differently, you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. If you're starting with hemp, you're going to end up with rope.
 

Kite High

Well-Known Member
well howard did get busted and he didn't have that kind of money when he got out of prison he made most of what he's got from his books and shit. But if you actually met Shanti then guess I could see your point not liking him not sure though I never met him either way he's a pretty good breeder. I never heard of any of the breeders you listed where they out of and where do they sell there seeds?
Here you go.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Werard+Bruining
 

Kite High

Well-Known Member
Responding to above:

How nice/friendly/charismatic a guy is has very little to do with his ability as a breeder, and less yet to do with the quality of the ceeds.

Howard Marks has charisma. . .he's a charmer. . .but pretty sure the guy would tell you he's not a breeder and never has been.

On genetics, I think the simplest way to put it is that the genetics determine a plants POTENTIAL. Its then up to the grower to realize that potential.

Obviously a great grower can bring out the best from any plant, but ultimately, a mediocre grower with excellent genetics is ALWAYS going to do better than a top-level grower with poor genetics.

Put differently, you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. If you're starting with hemp, you're going to end up with rope.
I never implied my dislike had anything to do with his gear nor breeding efforts.
 

Bilbo Baggins

Well-Known Member
Unfortunately the Cannabis Cup held annually in Amsterdam has turned into a corporate back slapping industry in which winners are allocated not it would seem by neutral judges making unbiased choices, but seems to reward those seed companies which spend most on advertising in High Times magazine. High Times sponsors the Cannabis Cup, and its no accident that certain seed companies are almost guaranteed a good showing. Money Talks, and there are plenty of seed buyers believe it.
 

Kite High

Well-Known Member
well howard did get busted and he didn't have that kind of money when he got out of prison he made most of what he's got from his books and shit. But if you actually met Shanti then guess I could see your point not liking him not sure though I never met him either way he's a pretty good breeder. I never heard of any of the breeders you listed where they out of and where do they sell there seeds?
Yes yes. All criminals are broke. That misinfo is a necessity to the enterprise. Do not expect you to understand such things.
 

bluntmassa1

Well-Known Member
Yes yes. All criminals are broke. That misinfo is a necessity to the enterprise. Do not expect you to understand such things.
the guy got busted his cash and assets where seized only way he got out with money is if he buried a bunch of gold in the woods also if he had that kind of money I doubt he would have asked Shantibaba about getting into the business. I guess you don't understand when you get busted as a kingpin they take everything you have everything.
 

MrEDuck

Well-Known Member
There's lots of ways to launder money.
A seed company could run a thousand seeds to find a cup winner that is amazing, but if most of the plants are mediocre people popping a few seeds are going to feel ripped off. A better contest would be to have seed companies send a pack to a designated grower and have them grow them out and have the winners picked from the results.
 

lahadaextranjera

Well-Known Member
I like them all really. They've never been anything but pleasant.

We all know Mr Nice is H.Marks and that shantibaba grew strains for GH Seeds. They all do work with eachother. Serious seeds is also working with another company.
 

NevilleS.2013

Active Member
Dreamtime from mr nice seeds but grown and entered by an grower won a cup. Critical Mass also from mr nice seeds and grown by an grower has won many cups. There's reasons why I asked why y'all don't buy from cup winners. Mr nice seeds as a seed company hasn't never won a cup. But ppl have grown out their seeds and won cups. Funny how a company doesn't have to be on YouTube every other day showing off their genetics, while others go all out to get u to buy into something that its not. Have y'all ever wondered who'd win a cup if MNS was to come out of retirement.
 

Medshed

Well-Known Member
There's lots of ways to launder money.
A seed company could run a thousand seeds to find a cup winner that is amazing, but if most of the plants are mediocre people popping a few seeds are going to feel ripped off. A better contest would be to have seed companies send a pack to a designated grower and have them grow them out and have the winners picked from the results.
That is the only kind of cup I would ever pay attention to. It would provide real, useful information to bean buyers. Sure, even a competition like that can be gamed but it would be difficult if the growers were required to document along the way.
 

MrEDuck

Well-Known Member
The grows would have to be documented. There's way too many shady characters in the cannabis industry for that to not be a requirement.
I think most of the major seed makers would be terrified to enter something like that though.
 

Jogro

Well-Known Member
Dreamtime from mr nice seeds but grown and entered by an grower won a cup. Critical Mass also from mr nice seeds and grown by an grower has won many cups.
Really? Which cups and who won them?

There's reasons why I asked why y'all don't buy from cup winners.
So, why did you ask?

There are MANY good explanations why not.

The single most important one is that cups are mostly marketing gimmicks. Probably 95% of genetics never get entered into contests, period, and even within the group of strains that wins the cups, in at least some cases the wins themselves are questionable.

Plus, there is no guarantee that if you buy allegedly cup winning genetics from a breeder that you'll be able to grow out plants similar to those that won the contest. In many cases the genetics in the packs are definitely NOT the same thing as the ones that won the cups.

And again, just because a strain wins a cup, doesn't mean its necessarily a good choice for any individual grower.

Bluntly, the whole concept of "cannabis cups" is flawed. At *best* the winner reflects a bag of buds that a given panel of judges prefers that week. Even assuming their choice actually is legitimate (which is questionable in some cases), that doesn't mean its the best STRAIN for you to grow at home, only that that particular grower did a good job that particular time.

What good is a cup winning strain if its low yielding, disease prone, or otherwise hard to grow?

Mr nice seeds as a seed company hasn't [n]ever won a cup. But ppl have grown out their seeds and won cups. Funny how a company doesn't have to be on YouTube every other day showing off their genetics, while others go all out to get u to buy into something that its not. Have y'all ever wondered who'd win a cup if MNS was to come out of retirement.
Honestly, I don't stay up at night wondering about cannabis cups, let alone who might or might not win them.

If Mr. Nice could just pop in and win cups at will, why doesn't it?

Answer: Either they actually can't win the cups as easily as you suggest they can, or they don't think its worth the bother of trying.

If these cups are so important/valuable, why not?
 

MarWan

Well-Known Member
grow logs & smoke reports are my way to decide what to buy. I cannot wait for wiliams wonder to be restocked at SoS.
 

Jogro

Well-Known Member
A seed company could run a thousand seeds to find a cup winner that is amazing, but if most of the plants are mediocre people popping a few seeds are going to feel ripped off.
I think this sort of thing is actually pretty common. I can't tell you how many posts I've seen from people growing cup winning strains who said that they just got bad hermies, poor yield or potency, and were hugely disappointed saying it just wasn't worth the effort.

In some cases the buds actually winning the cup are from a unique pheno that you're just probably not going to find in any given pack.

In some cases "name" genetics of an older winning cup (eg White Widow, Northern Lights, Jack Herer) simply probably aren't the same as the ones that won the cup years ago, via drift, loss, etc.

In rare cases, the whole exercise was probably a fraud. . .IE the buds that the judges smoked are entirely unrelated to the genetics the breeder puts in the packs.

A better contest would be to have seed companies send a pack to a designated grower and have them grow them out and have the winners picked from the results
That would be a little better, but it would still be imperfect, and its not really practical anyway.

All the losers would just claim that their particular strain wasn't grown right. . .and you know what. . .in many cases it would be a legitimate complaint. Some of these strains are picky and take some experience to grow right. The proper cure on these things may vary from strain to strain (some continue to get better with age. . .some don't). You can't expect someone growing plants one time to dial in a potentially cup winning performance for each of 30 different strains the very first time! Then, different strains need different handing for curing. Some buds peak quickly in the jar while others benefit from prolonged aging.

With any contest there is an issue of who the judges are. Are magazine editors and/or celebrities really the best cannabis judges? Even if they are, when you go to a bar and order a beer, do you want the beer some panel of beer "experts" likes the most, or the one *YOU* like the most?

Bluntly, I think the whole concept of cannabis cups is flawed. So much of this is just subjective. Most of the contests aren't open to all comers, and realistically, there are only so many strains a given panel can fairly evaluate in a few days. EG, how much "taste" is going to come through after you've already smoked five joints that day? The first "cut" the judges typically do is just look and smell. So a lot of that is judging the trim and cure, and not necessarily the actual strain. That's fair. . .you do have to make exclusions somehow, but in certain cases a really great strain that gets entered late, and isn't cured or manicured properly might get overlooked.

I'd also argue pretty strongly that because of tolerance, persistent cannabinoid receptor agonism, and other issues if you really want to judge effect/high quality, you can't fairly judge more than a few strains per WEEK, effectively making this factor impossible to judge in any conventional contest. Sure, you can simply look at the THC analysis numbers, but that's not really much of a "contest", is it? If a particular strain has a unique cannabinoid profile, that may get overlooked in a contest where its the 4th or 5th strain of the day the judges are trying.

And no judging of just buds is ever really take into account all of the other factors important in choosing a strain: Yield, ease of growth, phenos, hermie-tendency, disease/pest resistance, etc. That's why picking a strain just because it won last years cup is just foolish.

Bottom line, contests attract attention, and they sell beans. At BEST they identify some of the best buds, but that's not quite the same thing as the best strains.
 

Jogro

Well-Known Member
The grows would have to be documented. There's way too many shady characters in the cannabis industry for that to not be a requirement.
I think most of the major seed makers would be terrified to enter something like that though.
Idea is interesting, but simply not practical. Who is going to run 20 different strains from ceed all at once, (that will vary in flowering times from 8-16 weeks), cull out males, select phenos, harvest at peak, dry and cure? That's an incredibly complex undertaking, and a lot of work.

I do think the industry could use something like a "consumer reports" of weed, where a properly designed independent facility tests open-marked purchased packs of ceeds blinded under standardized conditions, then gives a full analysis on germ rates, phenos, growth characteristics, yield, potency, terpene content, and other interesting things.

That would basically give you all the same information, just without the need for some artificial "contest" setting. Unfortunately, I just don't think this would be commercially viable until/unless there is broader legalization.
 

HazeHeaven

Active Member
I think this sort of thing is actually pretty common. I can't tell you how many posts I've seen from people growing cup winning strains who said that they just got bad hermies, poor yield or potency, and were hugely disappointed saying it just wasn't worth the effort.

In some cases the buds actually winning the cup are from a unique pheno that you're just probably not going to find in any given pack.

In some cases "name" genetics of an older winning cup (eg White Widow, Northern Lights, Jack Herer) simply probably aren't the same as the ones that won the cup years ago, via drift, loss, etc.

In rare cases, the whole exercise was probably a fraud. . .IE the buds that the judges smoked are entirely unrelated to the genetics the breeder puts in the packs.


That would be a little better, but it would still be imperfect, and its not really practical anyway.

All the losers would just claim that their particular strain wasn't grown right. . .and you know what. . .in many cases it would be a legitimate complaint. Some of these strains are picky and take some experience to grow right. The proper cure on these things may vary from strain to strain (some continue to get better with age. . .some don't). You can't expect someone growing plants one time to dial in a potentially cup winning performance for each of 30 different strains the very first time! Then, different strains need different handing for curing. Some buds peak quickly in the jar while others benefit from prolonged aging.

With any contest there is an issue of who the judges are. Are magazine editors and/or celebrities really the best cannabis judges? Even if they are, when you go to a bar and order a beer, do you want the beer some panel of beer "experts" likes the most, or the one *YOU* like the most?

Bluntly, I think the whole concept of cannabis cups is flawed. So much of this is just subjective. Most of the contests aren't open to all comers, and realistically, there are only so many strains a given panel can fairly evaluate in a few days. EG, how much "taste" is going to come through after you've already smoked five joints that day? The first "cut" the judges typically do is just look and smell. So a lot of that is judging the trim and cure, and not necessarily the actual strain. That's fair. . .you do have to make exclusions somehow, but in certain cases a really great strain that gets entered late, and isn't cured or manicured properly might get overlooked.

I'd also argue pretty strongly that because of tolerance, persistent cannabinoid receptor agonism, and other issues if you really want to judge effect/high quality, you can't fairly judge more than a few strains per WEEK, effectively making this factor impossible to judge in any conventional contest. Sure, you can simply look at the THC analysis numbers, but that's not really much of a "contest", is it? If a particular strain has a unique cannabinoid profile, that may get overlooked in a contest where its the 4th or 5th strain of the day the judges are trying.

And no judging of just buds is ever really take into account all of the other factors important in choosing a strain: Yield, ease of growth, phenos, hermie-tendency, disease/pest resistance, etc. That's why picking a strain just because it won last years cup is just foolish.

Bottom line, contests attract attention, and they sell beans. At BEST they identify some of the best buds, but that's not quite the same thing as the best strains.
A lot of sense made here. My exact opinions pretty much when it comes to judging. Especially the fact that smoking 5 or so times in a day will severely impair your judgement of a particular strain. If you are still coming down from a previous strain, that will impact how you judge the effects of the next one, no?. And there are far too many strains (like 95%) that aren't judged in cannabis "cups" and are as good or better than anything else out there. Researching experienced growers' journals and paying attention to reputations of breeders is the way to choose what to grow IMO.
 
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